It’s Time To Embrace Your Right To Take Up Space ft. Rachel Willingham

Good morning everybody. You are currently listening to a Tall Girls podcast hosted by a tall girl named India. I hope everyone who is tuning into this episode is doing super fantastic. Today is a special day because I am joined by a special guest, mom, model, and fellow tall girl, Rachel Willingham. Hi, Rachel, good morning. How are you? I am doing super fantastic. How are you doing today? Great? I'm good. I know I gave a tiny introduction, but I feel like you could do a better job. Can you please introduce yourself to the audience. Yeah? Absolutely, yep. I'm Rachel Willingham. I live outside of Manhattan in New Jersey. I'm a mom of two boys that are five and one. I am, to India's point, i am a model, but I'm also a marketing consultant and a seamstress slash clothing designer in the works. I did not know that a lot of different things. I'm I always have to be busy, so I have a lot of weight on. And yes, I am a fellow tall girl. I am just about six one and I have been. I think I was six feet by the time I was about fourteen, so I've always been. Yes, we've always been very, very tall. That is crazy, since you were fourteen, So I was taller. I remember being taller than my like middle school teachers. Wow, I was taller than my fifth grade teacher. Actually, there's a picture of me with her and I was taller than her and she was Oh goodness. Then that means that you stopped growing like round fifteen ish, sixteen ish or I was. Yeah, I was about six feet by the time I was a freshman in high school, and I think so I played I rode. I was on the crew team in college. And when they did kind of like the full like health assessment measuring everything, weigh ins and everything, I was six one by then. So if somewhere between fourteen and eighteen, I settled in at six one. Oh my gosh, that is kind of cool. Actually, And I know you spoke a little bit about growing up and being taller. How are you taller than your middle school teachers? But I was wondering if you know, you could just go more in depth into what it was like growing up as a tall girl, the good, the bad, the ugly. I want to know pretty much everything. Yeah. Well, so I grew up with two older brothers, who are both about an inch taller than me. Both my parents are six feet tall, so you know, growing up, it was expected that I would be that tall. And I also grew up in an environment where my dad was former middle terry. He had played a lot of sports. You know, being tall and being muscular and having a big build was a positive in his mind, so he celebrated that, I think more so than I did, to the point where I was starting to get insecure about how much bigger I was than my peers at a time where he was kind of like, wow, this is so cool, and I think he was seeing like college scholarship dollar signs in his eyes when he was looking pretty much. So. But I think that it's normal for anyone to start developing insecurities around the time they start going to middle school, when they start you know, hearing what you know, what people should be wearing, and we start becoming aware of makeup and trends and celebrities in a way that you weren't when you're you know, really like a little kid. So I definitely developed a lot of insecurities around middle school with it. So and really from I would say from about probably twelve until I don't know, five years ago, maybe eight years ago, I struggled a lot with insecurity about about being so tall. So it's definitely like an ongoing process and journey to accepting it and learning to really love it. Yeah. I completely understand you with the whole college athlete thing and like the scholarships, because I actually used to play sports as well when I was younger. I used to do basketball, swimming, tennis, I did a lot of sports. So having that athletic build in combination with the fact that I was tall, there were a lot of people, especially parents, who would actually tell me that I was intimidating. And I don't know saying that too an eleven year old. You just don't know how to process that, do not at all. Yeah, So I completely understand that part of it. And also I wanted to ask, what was the one thing It could be a question, it could be a comment, what was the one thing that was so annoying for you to hear related to you being tall? Well, I think, you know, there's there's one thing that's more general that I think that most tall people, I think all tall people, definitely tall women here all the time, which is when somebody asks you know, when when I was younger, the question was do you play basketball or volleyball? You know, later on in life it becomes did you play basketball? As you get a little older. And I think that that is what annoys me about that question is it puts a lot of expectations on you, and it makes you feel like you almost didn't fulfill some sort of expectation that society places on you, if you de created those things and like wasted it in a certain way. And you know, it's funny because you know that people see height as a positive thing. So when they're asking that, you know they have no negative intentions. They don't They're not asking you in a way to make you feel ashamed for not having done those things. It's like, again, it's a celebration in their mind. They just don't know the complicated relationship that we have with our height. And then when it comes to a specific example of something I hated hearing. I remember I was in college and one night, my friends and I went to the store before a night out. I don't know. We were grabbing like makeup or something at the local walmart and I was in an aisle separate from my friends and I'm just walking down the aisle looking for what I'm grabbing, and I hear this woman turned to her husband and this is I mean, there was no attempt made to be discreet about this comment. She turns to him and says, that is the biggest woman I have ever seen in my life. And I looked at her like she has to be kidding that she's saying this within I mean within six feet of me and I kind of and they were staring at me like I was this like freak show, and you know, and it was I was so upset. I was so upset. It was like because you know, like we we like tall and big has two different connotations, especially like in our society that's so obsessed with like you know, like skinny will always still be on a pedestal, you know, so like that's the biggest woman, you're like, I mean, it was like a gut punch. And I remember coming out to the car where my friends were waiting, and I just remember crying because it was just so you know, at college is like was peak insecurity for me. So because I lived in a sorority with girls who were all like very small, always trading clothes with each other and I was very much outside of that. So yeah, that was definitely a really really hard moment. Number One, I am so sorry that that even happened to you, because that is not okay. I mean, I guess it's one thing to be discreet about it, but her just saying that at the top of her lungs in the middle of the store, you don't even know the person. That's horrendous. So and it's I've had conversations about instances like that with other women who are tall, and we all kind of in those conversations, I've had a common theme seems to be like this entitlement that people feel like they feel entitled to be allowed to say something about our height. And I think you and I have talked about this before that height seems to be the thing that people feel like they can comment on. They don't think of it as rude because the height as a positive thing. But in that case, I don't know how she possibly saw it as a positive comment that she was making. But yeah, that was that was tough for sure. And I know we also spoke about this a little bit before, But in terms of that intimidating factor, even with the woman calling you that's the biggest, saying that you were the biggest woman that she's ever seen. Like, what there are times where you felt like you were intimidating to other people? And how how did you deal with that? Growing up? You know, when I was really young, I remember being this is like, it's kind of sad that this is such a core memory. But and I don't know why this is a thing. But in Washington where I grew up, I grew up outside of Seattle, all the schools had like a square dancing unit and pe. Which it's Washington, it's not like it's Texas, right, So I don't know why they still need to do a square dancing and pe. But there was square dancing and you were partnered up either you could pick your partners. So all the couples who were dating, you know, sixth grade equivalent of dating, couple up. And then for everybody else who didn't get selected, you're the lineup by height and they would match you up with the opposite gender person who was the equivalent. Right. It was so just like shameful to not be chosen. And there were a lot of like there were a lot of people who would just kind of couple up and do the thing. That was never a thing for me. I was so much taller than the boys, and like there were always maybe one or two boys that were close to the same height or like the same height as me, but it always felt like I was the default for them, and I was never who got chosen, and that was definitely like, you know, I wanted to be the girl that gets chosen, and so that was definitely tough to be like, you know, the again, like they're stuck with me, and that felt like for the for most of the guys in my age, like I definitely felt intimidating to them too, like towering over these skinny kids, who of course are you know, men or boys mature later than girls, so in all, in all factors, you know, they were much smaller and scrawnier and shorter or whatever. So and I think in general, like I've had people say that they thought that I was much more serious than I am. Like once they get to know me, they're like, oh, you're like you're actually kind of a weirdo and kind of really goofy, and that's not at all what we expected just looking at you. So I think there's a certain air of like again, like intimidation or seriousness that can be expected when somebody is you know, this height. Yeah, I can definitely understand that. And I've gotten those comments too about how I was scary at first or I was intimidating at first, but once they got to know me, they got to see the real side of me. They actually liked me better after they got to know me than when they first saw me, if that makes sense. But then again, I grew up in New York City, so I do have a mean face. I just grew up with that, so I can't help that for the most part. So I think that, in combination with the fact that I'm tall, maybe has something to do with it. But it it's crazy how people just place certain traits or assume your personality and who you are based off of what you look like based on your appearance, especially the things that you can't control, such as height. Yes, it's known. I guess that height is related to confidence and success and this and that and the other. But there's just so many more layers to tell people than just what other people see on the outside. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely? Yeah, I don't think people. Again, I don't think people understand the relationship that we have with ourselves when our height defines how we're seen by the world, you know, because when because anytime that you appear a certain way, whether it's your height, your eye color, your skin color, your hair length, whatever it is. Anything that you can't change, you can change your hair length, but like anything that you can't change about yourself is something that we all have to come to terms with, and that can be easier for others, you know, depending on what it is, and it can be again, something that can be seen as a positive. You don't know how long it's taken somebody to accept that. You know, so exactly exactly, I agree with that, and going off of that when we were speaking earlier, I believe last week you did mention that you were writing a book related to being tall. Can you tell us more about that? Yes, I say, I smile because I started it during like peak lockdown, pandemic days, and it's definitely taken a back burner now that life has resumed and I've had another baby since starting writing it. But yes, I am in the process of writing a book that in my mind, I like to think of it as the book that I wish I had had when I was struggling to accept my height. I'm writing it for the girl or woman who has that complicated relationship with her height, and I the first thing I did before starting it was to interview many women. I think I did something like forty or fifty hours of interviews with women who are all tall, most of them. And when I say tall, I don't have a specific height in mind, because I know that like to be tall, someome consider five eight tall, someome consider you know, you have to be over to be in that. But for me, I wrote it for any woman who's been struggling with her height. And you know, so there are varying degrees within that. And so what I decided to do was to get these stories from women who also identify as really tall and talk to them about, you know, the relationship that they've had with their height highs and lows. When did they actually start to appreciate it, if at all, When is the time in your life where you've seen it as a positive thing. And I started also getting like really funny stories from them, which there are always funny stories, especially when it comes to over confident shorter men. You know that tends to be the theme of some of those hysterical anecdotes, but no hate to the short kings. But so the book is kind of broken down into the physical side of it on the mental side of it, So physical being things like, okay, the little inconveniences that we encounter in life based on our height, Like oh, my god, I'm sitting in this airplane seat and my knees are up against the seat in front of me, and the person in front of me has just lowered their seat, and now I have few hours of this ahead of me, you know. Like that's the more like outward stuff that's like, oh, the world is not made for me, things like where do we actually buy pants long enough right that it doesn't look like we're wearing high waters or capris right. So those are again like the more physical, kind of lighthearted elements of what I've written about, really building off of those conversations I had with all the women I interviewed. And then there's also a more i'd say, more personal, more intimate, more vulnerable side of the book, which is how do you face the mental and the emotional side of it, So that covers things like our body image, eating, disorders, which I know a lot of women my size, myself included, have battled eating disorders as a pretty direct effect of just really struggling with their size things like dating, which obviously is interesting when you're at this height and the dating pool of men taller than you is very small. So yeah, So the idea is that it's it's a part I won't say memoir because I don't feel like I have a story to tell that's just about me. It's really about, you know, taking all of those stories from the women I spoke with and putting it all in one place and making something that will My goal is for the girl or woman reading it by the end of it, she feels less alone with it, and she feels like she has maybe some advice and tips from women who are professional basketball players, professional volleyball players, models, women who did not make a career out of their height. Advice from those women on how to learn to appreciate it, or at least where to turn when you, you know, are struggling with it first starters. I think it's awesome that you're writing a book about this, because you did say one of the main points is just making sure that other tall women feel like they're not alone, because that is, I think, at least in my opinion, the biggest thing about being tall, especially a tall women like you, stick out. You're the otto one out, You're the tallest one in the group. Nobody else is taller than you, nobody else is as tall as you. So it can be easy to just be like, why me, Why am I the only one? But with you making this book and even getting stories from other tall women out there that are that sound like they're doing their best, sound like they're succeeding out here in the world, it gives that tall girl reading that book hope that, yes, there are other people out there like me, there are other women out there that are like me that are still doing their thing, and if she could do it, if they can all do it, why can't I. So I think that that is awesome, and I actually I can't wait for that books to come out because I feel like the pressure is on now that I've had this conversation with you. Now I have to finish it. You have to. It was it was like, what am I? What's my purpose? You know, we all had our big reflection moments of how small and and significant we were during the pandemic, during lockdown, and I'm like, I'm going to start a book and now wait a second, Now I have real purpose here. I got to finish this. So my goal is to finish it by the end of this year. So fingers crossed, and you know, I I'm gonna try to go through the traditional publication process. Yeah. So that's uncharted territory for me too. But that excited. Thank you, thank you. But hey, you have a supporter here. So also, are these tall women people that you know? Yes? So these were all women who I first I reached out to the women who I know in my life that are close friends of mine that I felt comfortable reaching out to. I have probably I'd say I think it was like five or six women that I just reached out like directly to. And then I also posted on Instagram just saying, hey, if anyone has a friend or a sister or a college you know, roommate, whatever, who is really tall, you know, I would love for you to ask them if they'd be comfortable speaking to me. So I met a lot of women through it. I met a professional volleyball player who lives in Europe. She's she's American, but she's playing in Copenhagen. I spoke with a former basketball player. I spoke with one of my friends mother in laws, who is six three, never did sports, didn't model, She never really, i would say, used her height, you know, professionally, and she loves being sixty three, loved it. So it was it was really cool to hear kind of like just everybody's individual journey with it, but yeah, it was. It was, and it was a very cool way to expand my network of women who I know have some of the same experiences as me. So it was a very bonding experience and even very like cathartic. I actually had more than one woman end up crying during these conversations, like we were going deep with insecure things we'd struggled with. One of them was like, I have never spoken about this, Like I've never had no conversation, and so it felt good to know that it was helping somebody process old feelings. Yeah, you know, in an environment where they felt safe and like they were understood. Wow, this is this is some good stuff. This is some inspiring stuff. And it sounds like you kind of built this tall girl community while you're at it too. So I think that that's super awesome. Like I said it was, it was definitely the best thing that came out of the pandemic for me. That's so cool. And then I just want to wrap up with one last question. Since we were talking about the whole intimidation factor and feeling the odd one out and sticking out stuff like that, what is one piece of advice that you want to give to the tall girls listening right now who feel like they are intimidating and maybe afraid to take up space. Yeah. I think it's it's so hard because everybody's like journey to self acceptance is so personal and so different that what works for one person may not work for somebody else. But I would say my number one piece of advice is to find the environments, and again that's going to be different for everybody. Find the environment where you see it as a positive thing. Find the environment where you find yourself sitting taller and standing taller, because that generally means that that's that's where you feel most comfortable. For me, that's been in the gym, that's been working out, you know I did. I would say I used it to my advantage in sports. I use it to my advantage, you know, just in working out now, like I have become a little bit of a gym junkie, and like it's the first time of my life where I see my muscles and my big my big frame as a positive thing. I love competing with I love competing with guys in the gym, like I love I've started putting into like lifting and enjoy that. But also, you know, there's other environments that don't have to do with sports where it's seen as a positive as well. I know that modeling is a difficult industry in general, and it can be really tricky to enter if you do have insecurities, but it is an environment where being taught is the norm and it's accepted. And I will say that I've had you know, I've done runway and in runway experiences, sometimes there's castings where they're saying, you know, a designer will say I will not cast somebody who is not at least five ten, and you're like, all right, well I got this, you know. Yeah, just find the environments where you feel best about your height. I think it does really help to have friends that are the same height as you. So find your people. Yes, and yeah, that's really it just like find the places where you feel like you can celebrate it. I definitely agree with that, especially with finding other tall friends. My main friend group, the tallest one is five four that like sticks and a half inches taller than her, but we I think every tall woman has a best friend who is like barely five feet tall. I would say, like one of my very best friends, I think she's five ft five one, and we always kind of joke that we're little puzzle pieces where she kind of fits right in here and I'm up here. Literally my high school friend, she had been four eleven for the longest time in high school. Then one day she came in so happy, and I'm like, oh my god, well is to be happy. But you know, when you're in high school, you're just like, I'm so tired. I'm sitting here, like why are you happy? She's like, I've found out that I'm five foot I'm like what. But I definitely think that every tall girl and he's a short best friend or short bess. But you know, having tall best friends are not that bad either. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Thank you so so much for me. It was so nice to have you here. I need to know, we all need to know, honestly, where can we find you on the interweb to contact you, follow you? You know here, updates about your book and stuff. Where can we find you? Well, I'm almost exclusively on Instagram in terms of social media, I will not pretend to be hip enough to use. Now that I've just said hip, I've totally aged myself, like thirty two going on fifty five. Yeah, Instagram, Willingham Rache and that is where I share modeling work and kind of humorous random stuff that happens with our life. Yeah, that's that's about it. Yeah, it's going to be linked below in the description. And I feel like this is a perfect time to plug myself at a Tellgirls podcast on Instagram, TikTok and binterest. Feel free to hit both of us up if you have any other questions, if you have any comments, if you have any other stories that you want to share with us, especially with Rachel, that would be great for her book, all the stories. So if somebody's listening to this and I'm like, I have to tell her this, it can be hysterical, it can be heartbreaking, whatever I want to talk to you, So it is not too late to get more stories from my book. So if you want to be in this, yes, please me. Y'all got to the end of this year, so what are we in. We're August of twenty twenty three. Y'all have till December of twenty twenty three, so you need to get up on it. But once again, thank you so so much for being here. I really appreciate it. We all really appreciate it. And I'll catch you guys in the next one. Good night and goodbye.